Sort of hitting the BDSM aspect of it you covered the wrestle points I agree with most, not others. But close enough to not argue. (the safety stuff, in my experience that's spot on)
But do want to add:
Choking - I've been trying to get people to stop using "breath play" as a catch all for any type of choking in my local BDSM community (I'm a DM at a dungeon)
For me - breath play - however accomplished momentarily cutting off air.
Choking - yes technically can be an air choke, but as Chris mention, should not be throat air choking. I like to see it refer to "blood choking" where again whatever method, and several second restriction of blood flow via carotids.
As FYI I come from 15 years in BDSM & Leather (lifestyle, not that into wearing leather) This includes everything from impact play, needle, electro etc
For me, and of course totally my opinion, as soon as you talk about "heel/jobber" or anything beyond "lets wrestle competitively" it touches to an extent on BDSM.
Just like a strictly wrestle match needs to be discussed, a BDSM scene needs to be negotiated.
As you (Chris) mentions it's not about "how can I beat the snot out of you and get my jollies". It is what do you want out of it that matches what I want. This bit bears repeating:
"Sadism is not about creating whatever stress floats your boat, that's abuse."
Long held scissors, short crushing scissors I've seen some like both. Head/body if you like body scissors, your "sub/jobber" likes head, then part of that negotiation should encompass that. "I'll mainly do your bod, but through a few heads in".
When I negotiate and execute a scene I always get the answers to the following:
What's the purpose of the scene - discipline, purely pain, sensation etc (with the wrestle part types of holds)
Pain? Feel someone's strength, simply be dominated and "bullied"?
I have been with folks that DO want to get "the snot beat out of them". Still need to discuss limits, as they WILL have them even if they don't mention, it does become incumbent on YOU, the top/heel to discover them.
"I have no limits" Really, so I can do needle play under your cuticles? "Wellllll.." Thought so, everyone either has limits or is suicidal.
Of course folks that have played before will have an idea, but limits and desires shift.
Everyone is influenced by their past- "I like/hate being squashed, my brother did it when I was a kid". I hear that alot.
Also triggers, sexual abuse, some of this creates either a desire, or an abhorrence.
Top/heels might have limits. I won't full slap anyone, a light tap yes. I won't face punch anyone. (actual fights notwithstanding).
There's more, but from a purely wrestle point that would be the main thing.
Part of the negotiation should be "what holds float your boat" discussed on both sides.
I actually didn't think I could dom/heel someone then sob to them, but recently had a fun match where I did do a bit of that. Def would not mind a partner to swap scissors.
Sorry if this is a bit disjointed, I really should be working :O, but BDSM as applied to wrestling is a subject near/dear to me.
Thanks for opening this, Chris.
Admittedly, I don't get to play as much as I'd like to especially in terms of scissor play top or bottom. If life were a little more perfect I'd have a friend for scissoring, and one for scissoring me, or, better yet, someone like me who both gives and takes. That being said, there's kind of a vacuum when it comes to the subject of scissors and what is left is a free for all where everyone kind of does what they do and the results are mixed.
I titled this as "Scissors as BDSM" because I wanted to take this out of the wrestling context a bit and address scissors as their own kind of play because I think the way you apply them should be vastly different depending on the context.
I was very fortuitous to be able to take a break last week and travel to the east coast to suffer in someone's legs and it struck me that some discussion the structuring of a scissor scene was as needed as discussions on muscle development for scissors and scissor technique. I am in no way saying that the scene that I was involved in was bad, hell I had a scene which I topped in a week before which needed some fine tuning, and the guy I played with had a lot of what I look for in a good scissor top. What I want to touch on really comes down to the controversial subject of what makes for good BDSM. Heaven forbid anyone ever comment on what can make a scene better and what kills a scene. Within the leather community I've known many who have been publicly shamed for such efforts but, frankly, y'all need to shut up and listen for a second, put your egos aside, and hopefully you will learn something.
Most BDSM is a journey in which to top and the bottom partake of together. Over the years I've improperly communicated that what I personally seek is a top more preoccupied with what they are doing than my personal enjoyment but in hindsight that's kind of a misrepresentation, if not an overcompensation from what happens with the non-scissor fetishist trying to indulge me. I still don't need to be told that this is hot while barely being touched and this isn't foreplay for sex to me, this is BDSM and I am bottoming to the scene you are creating.
When creating a scene in BDSM the sub should communicate their wants at the beginning, their NEEDS (such as an adjustment to pace, a loosening of rope if circulation is an issue, etc) during, and feedback after. The top however is responsible with understanding the wants and needs of the sub, controlling headspace of the sub, and pushing the sub without crossing the line. This is a delicate balance for both, honestly. Look, being a sub is hard work, arguably harder than the Dom's role, however a good Dom/Top is charged with the hardest task of all which is READING THE SUB. A good sub communicates usually when it's too late to make a meaningful change to the pace of the scene, a good Dom reads the needs of the sub well before the sub gets to the point of saying out loud what is needed. This takes experience.... the experience which is lacking due to the rare nature of a scissor kink.
So, although it is disingenuous of me to say what does and what does not make for a great scissor scene, everyone is looking for something different after all, a few points which have come up in debate with myself and ribcrusher7 should be mentioned here:
1) You're not rolling, you do not have to prove you can tap your partner, you don't have to aim for the tightest squeeze possible.
2) A scissor scene is an endurance race, not a sprint. If you're meeting up with someone and this is all that is on your docket, you need to pace yourself. Utilizing knee ride, scorpion crush technique (not even to get to a moderate crush but just to conserve energy), using your body weight can keep your partner suffering while keeping gas in your own tank,
3) Certain positions will wear your partner out faster and not in a good way. If we're talking head scissors, pay attention to where the hard parts of your legs are hitting. You don't want to crush the trachea but the muscles on the back of the neck can also get worn out quickly. For bodyscissors, scissors from the guard and backmount are very strenuous on the ribs and pose the greatest risk for cartilage damage. Even without injury the ribs can get sore fast and your sub will be tapping to rib strain more than anything else which really may not be what you're after. Body triangles can create similar pressure. Honestly, I think you need to take some strong scissors to really understand what you're doing to your bottom.
4) For the body scissors, at least for me, there is a no-go position which is direct pressure right on the stomach organ, right where the ribs and the abdomen meet. This and the traditional scorpion crush position can induce vomiting. Yeah, for breath control it kinda is the best place to put your pressure but it can kill the scene fast.
5) Speaking of breath control, it's a lot more intense when pressure is applied to the body. Anticipate that your sub will need more time to recover and will panic faster.
6) Again, with breath control, hand over nose and mouth can be fun but you don't have to be aggressive and you don't have to smash your partner's cartilage. I shouldn't have to say that but apparently I do.
7) If you are trying to choke your partner, keep in mind that you should never try to do a wind choke as this can damage the trachea and other structures in the neck. You cannot choke the back of the neck. Never crank someone's neck for any reason. No, really, if you are successful they will become paralyzed, don't do it. If you want to know how to choke someone effectively and with the lowest chance of injury watch one of my many videos on chokes. Use a technique you actually know. Not all neck squeezes are good, many are very very bad.
8) Sadism is not about creating whatever stress floats your boat, that's abuse. Again, this is a conversation or journey you are taking with a partner. You want them to suffer, they want to suffer, but you are the director of that suffering. Understand that if your sub is in subspace verbal communication with be challenging for them and they will want to be polite to you and let you do their thing. Don't take that for granted. It is a responsibility you carry. Rather than trying to test them with maximum pressure alone, try finding the point where their hand gets ready to tap and hold that edge as long as you can. If they do tap see what happens if you just release a little rather than all the way. If they allow you to hold them there do and then slowly ramp up and see if you can push them a little further than you could before.
A big point I want to drive home is that odds are, you're strong enough to get a tap, especially if you use the scorpion crush technique, but that doesn't necessarily make for a good scene. Instead see if you can play based on the headspace you're trying to create in your sub. Make them panic just to say that you can but then back off a little to keep them on edge. Let them be afraid about what you're going to do next but don't wear them out by going 100% all the time. Mix up your positions. Maybe you focus on using your legs for breath control, maybe they are a tool of fear, maybe you want them in pain from time to time. It is totally a bdsm thing so don't think about it as a submission wrestling thing where you're trying to win a match because odds are, no one signed up for that.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on this and I hope it at the vary least gives a little perspective.
john el (14)
2021-11-24 18:34Sort of hitting the BDSM aspect of it you covered the wrestle points I agree with most, not others. But close enough to not argue. (the safety stuff, in my experience that's spot on)
But do want to add:
Choking - I've been trying to get people to stop using "breath play" as a catch all for any type of choking in my local BDSM community (I'm a DM at a dungeon)
For me - breath play - however accomplished momentarily cutting off air.
Choking - yes technically can be an air choke, but as Chris mention, should not be throat air choking. I like to see it refer to "blood choking" where again whatever method, and several second restriction of blood flow via carotids.
As FYI I come from 15 years in BDSM & Leather (lifestyle, not that into wearing leather) This includes everything from impact play, needle, electro etc
For me, and of course totally my opinion, as soon as you talk about "heel/jobber" or anything beyond "lets wrestle competitively" it touches to an extent on BDSM.
Just like a strictly wrestle match needs to be discussed, a BDSM scene needs to be negotiated.
As you (Chris) mentions it's not about "how can I beat the snot out of you and get my jollies". It is what do you want out of it that matches what I want. This bit bears repeating:
"Sadism is not about creating whatever stress floats your boat, that's abuse."
Long held scissors, short crushing scissors I've seen some like both. Head/body if you like body scissors, your "sub/jobber" likes head, then part of that negotiation should encompass that. "I'll mainly do your bod, but through a few heads in".
When I negotiate and execute a scene I always get the answers to the following:
What's the purpose of the scene - discipline, purely pain, sensation etc (with the wrestle part types of holds)
Pain? Feel someone's strength, simply be dominated and "bullied"?
I have been with folks that DO want to get "the snot beat out of them". Still need to discuss limits, as they WILL have them even if they don't mention, it does become incumbent on YOU, the top/heel to discover them.
"I have no limits" Really, so I can do needle play under your cuticles? "Wellllll.." Thought so, everyone either has limits or is suicidal.
Of course folks that have played before will have an idea, but limits and desires shift.
Everyone is influenced by their past- "I like/hate being squashed, my brother did it when I was a kid". I hear that alot.
Also triggers, sexual abuse, some of this creates either a desire, or an abhorrence.
Top/heels might have limits. I won't full slap anyone, a light tap yes. I won't face punch anyone. (actual fights notwithstanding).
There's more, but from a purely wrestle point that would be the main thing.
Part of the negotiation should be "what holds float your boat" discussed on both sides.
I actually didn't think I could dom/heel someone then sob to them, but recently had a fun match where I did do a bit of that. Def would not mind a partner to swap scissors.
This has a good thing on scene negotiation (purely BDSM perspective):
https://submissiveguide.com/communication/articles/basics-negotiating-scene
Sorry if this is a bit disjointed, I really should be working :O, but BDSM as applied to wrestling is a subject near/dear to me.
Thanks for opening this, Chris.
ChrisWrestling (43 )
2021-11-23 09:44Admittedly, I don't get to play as much as I'd like to especially in terms of scissor play top or bottom. If life were a little more perfect I'd have a friend for scissoring, and one for scissoring me, or, better yet, someone like me who both gives and takes. That being said, there's kind of a vacuum when it comes to the subject of scissors and what is left is a free for all where everyone kind of does what they do and the results are mixed.
I titled this as "Scissors as BDSM" because I wanted to take this out of the wrestling context a bit and address scissors as their own kind of play because I think the way you apply them should be vastly different depending on the context.
I was very fortuitous to be able to take a break last week and travel to the east coast to suffer in someone's legs and it struck me that some discussion the structuring of a scissor scene was as needed as discussions on muscle development for scissors and scissor technique. I am in no way saying that the scene that I was involved in was bad, hell I had a scene which I topped in a week before which needed some fine tuning, and the guy I played with had a lot of what I look for in a good scissor top. What I want to touch on really comes down to the controversial subject of what makes for good BDSM. Heaven forbid anyone ever comment on what can make a scene better and what kills a scene. Within the leather community I've known many who have been publicly shamed for such efforts but, frankly, y'all need to shut up and listen for a second, put your egos aside, and hopefully you will learn something.
Most BDSM is a journey in which to top and the bottom partake of together. Over the years I've improperly communicated that what I personally seek is a top more preoccupied with what they are doing than my personal enjoyment but in hindsight that's kind of a misrepresentation, if not an overcompensation from what happens with the non-scissor fetishist trying to indulge me. I still don't need to be told that this is hot while barely being touched and this isn't foreplay for sex to me, this is BDSM and I am bottoming to the scene you are creating.
When creating a scene in BDSM the sub should communicate their wants at the beginning, their NEEDS (such as an adjustment to pace, a loosening of rope if circulation is an issue, etc) during, and feedback after. The top however is responsible with understanding the wants and needs of the sub, controlling headspace of the sub, and pushing the sub without crossing the line. This is a delicate balance for both, honestly. Look, being a sub is hard work, arguably harder than the Dom's role, however a good Dom/Top is charged with the hardest task of all which is READING THE SUB. A good sub communicates usually when it's too late to make a meaningful change to the pace of the scene, a good Dom reads the needs of the sub well before the sub gets to the point of saying out loud what is needed. This takes experience.... the experience which is lacking due to the rare nature of a scissor kink.
So, although it is disingenuous of me to say what does and what does not make for a great scissor scene, everyone is looking for something different after all, a few points which have come up in debate with myself and ribcrusher7 should be mentioned here:
1) You're not rolling, you do not have to prove you can tap your partner, you don't have to aim for the tightest squeeze possible.
2) A scissor scene is an endurance race, not a sprint. If you're meeting up with someone and this is all that is on your docket, you need to pace yourself. Utilizing knee ride, scorpion crush technique (not even to get to a moderate crush but just to conserve energy), using your body weight can keep your partner suffering while keeping gas in your own tank,
3) Certain positions will wear your partner out faster and not in a good way. If we're talking head scissors, pay attention to where the hard parts of your legs are hitting. You don't want to crush the trachea but the muscles on the back of the neck can also get worn out quickly. For bodyscissors, scissors from the guard and backmount are very strenuous on the ribs and pose the greatest risk for cartilage damage. Even without injury the ribs can get sore fast and your sub will be tapping to rib strain more than anything else which really may not be what you're after. Body triangles can create similar pressure. Honestly, I think you need to take some strong scissors to really understand what you're doing to your bottom.
4) For the body scissors, at least for me, there is a no-go position which is direct pressure right on the stomach organ, right where the ribs and the abdomen meet. This and the traditional scorpion crush position can induce vomiting. Yeah, for breath control it kinda is the best place to put your pressure but it can kill the scene fast.
5) Speaking of breath control, it's a lot more intense when pressure is applied to the body. Anticipate that your sub will need more time to recover and will panic faster.
6) Again, with breath control, hand over nose and mouth can be fun but you don't have to be aggressive and you don't have to smash your partner's cartilage. I shouldn't have to say that but apparently I do.
7) If you are trying to choke your partner, keep in mind that you should never try to do a wind choke as this can damage the trachea and other structures in the neck. You cannot choke the back of the neck. Never crank someone's neck for any reason. No, really, if you are successful they will become paralyzed, don't do it. If you want to know how to choke someone effectively and with the lowest chance of injury watch one of my many videos on chokes. Use a technique you actually know. Not all neck squeezes are good, many are very very bad.
8) Sadism is not about creating whatever stress floats your boat, that's abuse. Again, this is a conversation or journey you are taking with a partner. You want them to suffer, they want to suffer, but you are the director of that suffering. Understand that if your sub is in subspace verbal communication with be challenging for them and they will want to be polite to you and let you do their thing. Don't take that for granted. It is a responsibility you carry. Rather than trying to test them with maximum pressure alone, try finding the point where their hand gets ready to tap and hold that edge as long as you can. If they do tap see what happens if you just release a little rather than all the way. If they allow you to hold them there do and then slowly ramp up and see if you can push them a little further than you could before.
A big point I want to drive home is that odds are, you're strong enough to get a tap, especially if you use the scorpion crush technique, but that doesn't necessarily make for a good scene. Instead see if you can play based on the headspace you're trying to create in your sub. Make them panic just to say that you can but then back off a little to keep them on edge. Let them be afraid about what you're going to do next but don't wear them out by going 100% all the time. Mix up your positions. Maybe you focus on using your legs for breath control, maybe they are a tool of fear, maybe you want them in pain from time to time. It is totally a bdsm thing so don't think about it as a submission wrestling thing where you're trying to win a match because odds are, no one signed up for that.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on this and I hope it at the vary least gives a little perspective.
Chris